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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: what if.....

What if instead of Jerry the band had a lead guitarist that REALLY shredded fast and wild like Hendrix?

I mean come on, Garcia was good but he didn't play really fast and loud all the time and sometimes he kind of even played back up accent stuff instead of lead.
And it's not like he wrote the lyrics or anything.


ok, just had to do it because some of these arguements really puzzle me. As far as I'm concerned - JERRY, PHIL, BOB, BILL were indispensible and are the true core and not replaceable.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Apr 23, 2010 6:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

We ran around this a year or so back.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=224176

I agreed with you then, and agree with you now that Garcia, Lesh, Weir and Kreutzmann were all crucial and indispensable to what made the Grateful Dead. Take out one, any one, and it's Dead and gone. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't really listening as far as I'm concerned.

One of these days I'll find something to argue with you about, Johnny D.

:-)

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 23, 2010 9:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

" One of these days I'll find something to argue with you about, Johnny D."

great minds think alike no need to argue : )

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Poster: ducats Date: Apr 23, 2010 5:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

the boys had 2 leaders - PIG then the FAT MAN

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Apr 23, 2010 6:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Yep listening to the shows PIGS light shined a little brighter

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

If Pig was replaceable then Bobby was sho nuf replaceable

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Pig wasn't replaced or replaceable. They went on without him, they didn't replace him.

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 22, 2010 7:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

agreed

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

hardly. so you're saying they were better in 66 than 72,73, or 74? Come on!

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I'm sayin, you might be right about Pig, but on the other hand, Bobby aint all that as a singer OR a rhythm guitar player. I think the only reason he ever got as good as he did was because he was in a band with Jerry.

Eaaaasily replaceable...would have been a bit different without him but Jerry and Phil have always been the meat and potato's in the band. Hell, even Keith and Brent contributed more than Bobby ever did.

just my opinion

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 7:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Keith and Brent more than Bob? We'll definitely have to disagree on that one.

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Apr 22, 2010 9:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I totally agree that Bob developed his playing style in response to what Jerry and Phil were bringing to the table. He was kind of a late bloomer in the band, but by '69 he was holding his own, IMO.

Bob is part of the core 4 (Mickey is almost there...) and because of the simple fact that he was around for all 30 years. I'm not sure the GD would have survived as long as they did if in the 70's Bob got as spaced out as Keith or overdosed like Brent.

Do you really think a vocalist that sang about half of all the songs they ever played is truly replaceable?

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 23, 2010 7:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

There's lots of songs that Jerry sang better than Bobby, IMO. I've been listening to lots of JGB lately and I'm wondering why Bobby was ever put in charge of songs like Simple Twist of Fate and When I Paint My Masterpiece. There's some Bobby songs I like, for sure, like Throwing Stones and Black Throated wind, but on the other hand I don't think I've ever heard Jerry sing those. And as far as a rhythm guitar player is concerned, I don't think Jerry even needed one. I think Keiths keys in the late 70's JGB are amazing on account of less competition with the rhythm guitar. I'm even gonna go out on a limb and say that Donnas vocal work was better with JGB.

Bottom line, IMO, of all the original members, Bobby has always been the weakest link.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

going to maybe ruffle some feathers but I see how important a front man Pigpen was in the beginning but once the band really took off and went out there where the hell was his role then? Pretty much to just come out for his few big numbers - i.e. he wasn't that much an integral part of their music in the years where they made their best stuff. that's my opinion

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I agree. Nobody was integral the way Bob is integral. It was sort of like Pig deigned to play with them, and when he did, they sort of "featured" him. Bobby was core, usually not being highlighted or featured (except vocally, which is no small matter), but central pretty much at all times.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 22, 2010 7:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Since I already agreed down below, I didn't chime in up in this thread, esp cause someone might think I was just playing my Will Rogers role as PM, but, now that I just did it, more or less, I suppose the cat's out of the bag. I only note that though you and I generally agree, that JOTS person and I almost never see eye to eye, largely because he's a frost bitten, liberal leaning lefty, Palin-bashing, salmon loving, polar bear champion kind of guy. Watch out for him.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

That's it.

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Poster: groovernut Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Maybe Bobby should have been the lead. He can scream really loud....


Seriously where are Bobbies kick ass solo albums, where are the super songs? Learning form the thread before, I'm content know that the chemistry made it possible... however this question is even more esoteric.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Apr 23, 2010 5:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Not sure about 'kick-ass' but he did some good stuff with Kingfish - could not find any early stuff but this isn't too bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kNRS0__xSs

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 23, 2010 8:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

not 'too bad' but far from 'kick-ass' like everything Jerry ever touched.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Sugar Magnolia? A human that wrote Sugar Magnola is someone I am pretty impressed by. I have no words for Sugar Magnolia. It makes me think of the oatmeal ad that says "Go humans go."

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Apr 23, 2010 6:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

You just reminded me of the very first post I made here. With the aid of my trusty archaeological pick axe - here it is:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=70174

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 23, 2010 2:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Like I said, I have no words for Sugar Magnolia. "Bliss-inducing"? - no, never mind, I have no words. A person who can't enjoy Sugar Magnolia has to be either severely depressed or in a coma.

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I'm pretty fond of Greatest Story Ever Told, Cassidy, The Music Never Stopped, Estimated Prophet, Playin' in the Band.

And I gotta say Sugar Mags is pretty catchy.

Brother Esau is one of the better additions to the GD repertoire in the 80's, IMHO.

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Poster: groovernut Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Hey deadpolitics, you have pointed me some very interesting directions.... I must say you might have changed my opinion a bit. I have to learn to hear him. I also like Cassedy, as you point out there are some other good tunes. I mean I'm still not a bob head but you made a good case for him.. are you a lawyer?

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I'm actually finishing up my last undergraduate semester in Bioresource Engineering!

Never considered law school but I am fan of justice and think the ACLU and EFF do some fantastic things to protect American's civil liberties.


Glad that I was able to open your ears to something new!

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 23, 2010 8:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

had to google "bioresource engineering" and it sounds like a noble endeavour. we need more of that this day and age.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Sugar Magnolia is just catchy? Seriously, is this a common opinion?

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Apr 22, 2010 10:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

No it's actually a fantastic tune... must have been great to boogie to Sugar Mags at the end of a long crazy show :)

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Garcia played fast plenty...also, shredding wasn't really Garcia or Hendrix's style, they both "ripped"...hendrix was a blues rock (at the end some fusion) guitarist who played loud, distorted, killer tone and had the chops to play very fast, but it was tasteful and had composition...Hendrix played alot of lead rythym, particularly when he was breaking into the scene as an accompanying musician early on...

Now if you mean wildly , distorted playing in song breaks, that was not Garcia, per say...but you can check out versions of passenger 77'-79' as an example, where Garcia plays very fast runs with alot of drive...there are some crazy end solos during this period (Wharf Rat, Other One, etc.) and into the early 80s where Garcia would use more driven, distorted tones in tunes...go to 89 Deals to hear Garcia rip 07-19-1989 prime example...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

hey Strat - I was poking fun at the Weir jab below. No Garcia - no Dead.

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Poster: groovernut Date: Apr 22, 2010 4:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

FYI, It's not a jab, I have not interest in insulting Bob. I want to know just exactly what is it was that made it work with him... since on his own he is not the most stellar performer, just how it is bro.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 7:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

" since on his own he is not the most stellar performer,"

NONE of them were are are except Jerry. Phil had some pretty good lineups for sure but go check out the and Loose to Truck he chose to play with during the hiatus. Does that somehow diminish Phil's role?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 22, 2010 5:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

ok, i get it now then. You're right on his own. But by you calling him mereley competant I took that as an insult to him.

fwiw I don't think Phil's band is all that on his own either( with some very notable exceptions of course )

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Poster: groovernut Date: Apr 22, 2010 5:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Yeah, technicality was not what made the dead special. There are plenty of more technically savvy bands that blow. The way he fit into the band was unique...

Obviously I have been listing to the GD for a while and like it, so a flat out insult would not only insult Bob but my taste...

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Apr 22, 2010 7:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

"Yeah, technicality was not what made the dead special."

No shit. Plenty of rock bands over the last 40 years could play circles around the Dead from technical perspective, but being proficient and having that certain "IT" are two different things...

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Apr 23, 2010 2:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I heard a recent radio interview where Gary Hoey said Jeff Beck was his favorite, because where others try to play fast, Beck can kill you with one note.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Apr 23, 2010 7:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Here, here, hear, hear.......

A great example? Go to You Tube and search for Guthrie Govan. Speed freak and he's not even the fastest out there. I saw a clip of some metal head doing some kind of 4 string sweep seizure thingie at over 360 bpm (advertised - I didn't count)

It boils down to this for me - do I like what I hear and am enjoying the supporting experience while hearing it?

I think the whole of the Grateful Dead experience was that it was its own self enabling petri dish for cool shit to grow in.

Hell, even the occasional troll is fun to kick around.......

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Apr 22, 2010 9:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Even with all their periodic sloppiness, there was no one like them. I've subjecting my ears to major live abuse since 1968 and I can say, unequivocally, that no one could beat them when they were in the game. Listen to concerts from 1969 to 1974. Drop yourself into the middle of a fast and insane PIB or WR Suite. Remember all the gorgeous, spontaneous moments that we were privleged to witness. Think of all the styles of music that they were jammingly fluent in. Could any other band even remotely touch them? I think not. And that's all I have to say about that.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 23, 2010 7:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

We, of course, agree, DH; and I've said it enough times here that it's as boriing as all the rest of my posts, but having spent a month with them now, in earnest, the only one for me (duh): CREAM (ie, "touch them").

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Apr 23, 2010 12:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Did you follow Clapton into Derek?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 23, 2010 8:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Just a bit...earliest stuff; somehow, after BlFaith, and really after about 71, he just never did anything for me again...I can appreciate the techno aspects, and so on (ie, that he may have gotten better in some respects, and wanted to change up styles, explore, etc., but never cared for any of it--or at least it never "grabbed" me the way his early playing did).

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Apr 24, 2010 10:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

So, he peaked early in his career, did he? :)

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Poster: groovernut Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

ditto on phils band there are not the end all for all.. but there are cool gigs and some good lineups.

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Your post gave me pause for thought, Every decade of there existence is wrapped with what to do about the keyboard player, I wonder how much grief Pig would have gotten had Bobby gotten sick? Or Phil? You call Jerry, Bobby, Phil,Bill irreplcable to the Dead's music. I can agree with that, but still I wonder what if.
Laughin right now realizing that's the title of this thread, Good question....

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Poster: huntr Date: Apr 23, 2010 6:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Jimmy Herring ?

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Apr 22, 2010 6:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

Personally,I think all great bands are greater than the sum of their parts. Something just clicks in their synergy. When the parts get bigger egos and go on their own, they don't quite do stuff quite as well. Examples - Beatles, CSN, Eagles, FW Mac, Airplane etc. Of course, this a big IMO!

BTW - anyone ever see the video where Hendrix is backing up the Isley Bros. Big change in 2 years!

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Poster: Dancin'Deb Date: Apr 22, 2010 9:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I completely agree with Diamondhead...I think it's the synergy of the band that made them so incredible. I will say, though, that Jerry just had that Je ne sais quoi that made him an amazing musician...and such a sweet voice.

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Apr 23, 2010 5:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

I agree. If you asked someone with marginal GD knowledge the whould probably think of those 4 first.I think that it is true about Bobbys playing being sketchy at times but you can also say the same for Keith Richards. The Stones damn sure aint the same without him.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 23, 2010 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

" agree. If you asked someone with marginal GD knowledge the whould probably think of those 4 first"

that's my opinion of the four that are indispensible. What do you consider marginal knowledge?

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Apr 23, 2010 10:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

That wasnt directed at you or anyone else in particular. Just someone in general.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 23, 2010 10:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

oh good. Don't want my wife to think I'm a nerd about the band if it isn't true

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Apr 23, 2010 10:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

No I agreed with you so wouldnt that make me a marginal nerd also?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 23, 2010 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

you're talking here aren't you? yeah, we're nerds

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Apr 22, 2010 5:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: what if.....

That's the difference between White Punks on Dope and white dopes on punk . Right?